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Honoring Fred T. Korematsu Day with Professor Robert Chang

Dean Austen Parrish interviews Professor Robert Chang, executive director of the renowned Fred T. Korematsu Center for Law and Equality (Center), and discusses our exciting news that he and the Center will be joining UCI Law this summer.  Professor Chang details the iconic civil rights leader's story, his fight for justice and outlines the goals and ambitions for the Center at UCI Law.

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Featuring:

• 

  Austen Parrish

  UCI Law Dean and Chancellor’s Professor of Law
  Expertise: Transnational Law and Litigation, Civil Procedure, Constitutional Law, Federal Courts

  Austen Parrish assumed the role of Dean and Chancellor's Professor of Law of the University of California, Irvine School of Law in August 2022, becoming its third dean. He previously served as the Dean and James H. Rudy Professor of Law at Indiana University Maurer School of Law. In 2018 and again in 2021, he was named a Wells Scholars Professor for his work with Indiana University’s prestigious Wells Scholars program. In 2019, he was bestowed with IU’s Bicentennial Medal and, in 2022, he was awarded the Provost’s Medal, the highest honor bestowed by the Office of the Provost, recognizing outstanding and transformative contributions to Indiana University Bloomington. He serves on the board of directors of AccessLex Institute and is an elected member of the American Law Institute. Prior to academia, Parrish practiced law at O'Melveny & Myers LLP in Los Angeles. He earned his law degree from Columbia University.

• 

  Robert S. Chang

  Professor of Law
  Executive Director of the Fred T. Korematsu Center for Law and Equality
  

  Robert S. Chang is a Professor of Law and Executive Director of the Fred T. Korematsu Center for Law and Equality. He has also previously served as Associate Dean for Research and Faculty Development. A graduate of Princeton and Duke Universities, he writes primarily in the area of race and interethnic relations. He is the author of "Disoriented: Asian Americans, Law and the Nation-State" (NYU Press 1999), co-editor of "Minority Relations: Intergroup Conflict and Cooperation" (University Press of Mississippi 2017), and more than 60 articles, essays, and chapters published in leading law reviews and books on Critical Race Theory, LatCrit Theory, and Asian American Legal Studies.

Podcast Transcript

Intro 0:04
Welcome to UCI Law Talks from the University of California Irvine, School of Law. For all our latest news, follow UCI Law on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn.

Austen Parrish 0:21
Well, thank you for joining us. My name is Austen Parrish. I'm the Dean and Chancellor's professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Law. This is UCI Law Talks, the podcast where you learn more about the amazing anteater community, that is UCI Law. You also get to hear from inspiring leaders and lawyers in the legal profession. Today we're doing something special and honor Fred T. Korematsu Day on January 30. This is the first statewide day in U.S. history named after an Asian American Korematsu Day has been recognized in approximately 20 states, including California, New York, Florida, Virginia and Michigan and more. To honor that day. Today, I'm very fortunate to be joined by Professor Bob Chang, the executive director of the Fred T. Korematsu Center for Law, tech quality, and a professor of law currently at Seattle University. Press, Chang will be joining the faculty of UCI law this coming summer. He's a nationally recognized scholar who's made a tremendous impact in his scholarship, his teaching, his mentorship of students, and his work as the executive director of the Korematsu Center in 2022. He was the recipient of Seattle University's Nick Goldrick fellowship, the most prestigious honor Seattle University can confer upon its faculty. Hey, Bob, so great to have you on the podcast. Welcome, and nice to have you. Join us for this special episode of UCI law talks. Thanks, awesome.

Bob Chang 1:40
And yeah, I'm really excited to get down there. I'd love to be there right now. So especially with the cold weather that we're experiencing up here. Well,

Austen Parrish 1:49
I've got to say the sun is shining right now. And I apologize for that. But well, let's start with the well, and I should say, we are looking forward to having you down here in Irvine. So not only not only do I hope the weather will hold, but it'll be great when you get your feet on the ground here, coming up soon. But hey, let's get let's get started with just the basics and maybe a little bit of an introduction to our listeners about the center, its history, its tremendous legacy. And so maybe we can begin with sort of a basic question, what is the Fred T Korematsu Center for Law and equality? And can you describe its goals and ambitions? Sure,

Bob Chang 2:23
In terms of, you know, the center of goals and ambitions is pretty basic. And maybe I should just read what our mission is, it's to advance justice and equality through a unified vision that combines research, advocacy, and education. And so you know, the center is located in a loss. And so, you know, it is a racial justice advocacy organization, located in an academic institution. And so, you know, what we do is we think about things like the fact of racial inequality in US society. And so what we try to do is we try to understand, well, what produces it? How does it come about, in addition to thinking about, how does it come about, in part, because we're a law school try to think about practical solutions, is there something that we could think about to remedy it? So if there's something about the law itself that helps to produce these observed inequalities, we try to think about, well, what kind of doctrinal pathway, whether it's under the federal constitution, whether it's under a state constitution, whether it is statutory to try to achieve an outcome. And then especially because we are in a law school, we work with students to train them in terms of how to do this work with the idea that then they go out with these tools to be able to do this work out there in the world? Well,

Austen Parrish 3:46
one of the and what a great training experience for students, that's a great goal and mission, I mentioned that on January 30. We're going to celebrate Fred T Korematsu day to California does that. That's the name of the senator who was Fred Korematsu, and why is it important in US history? And why is he important to the Senator? Sure.

Bob Chang 4:04
So let me start by talking a little bit about Fred, for those who may not be familiar with his story. So Japanese American, US citizen, although I don't know that it really matters in terms of how he was treated during World War Two. He was a young welder in the San Francisco Bay Area, when war broke out. Then shortly afterwards, first, there was a curfew order. And then there was an exclusion order. So people who look like him of his ancestry had to report to the so called relocation centers. That was a waystation before they would be placed in incarceration camps away from the West Coast. He said, No, this is not right. He said no. And then he got arrested while he was in jail, Ernest vestige who was with the ACLU, the American Civil War. disunion, visited him in jail because Ernest was looking for a test case to try to challenge this mistreatment of Japanese Americans during the war. And he talked to Fred asked him if he would be willing to be a test case. And Fred said, Yes. And so this case, he was convicted in federal district court in San Francisco. And he appealed his conviction, conviction all the way to the US Supreme Court. And this decision is often regarded as a stain on our US Constitution on our constitutional jurisprudence. Or the court said, well, obviously racism is terrible, and then we would never countenance or allow for racism. But then they went ahead and said, treating Japanese Americans like this was was okay. And so the case is important, constitutionally. And so you know, it ends up being something that is taught in US law school, but destroy didn't stop there. What happened is around 40 years later, researchers Peter irons and the archivist Aiko persecution, Agha found evidence in the National Archives, that the Department of Justice had misrepresented facts before the US Supreme Court. This actual Lee allowed a reopening of the wartime conviction attorneys went to him and asked him Well, are you interested in seeking justice now? And he said yes, because he didn't think that his treatment was okay. And at one point, the US government actually tried to stop the lawsuit, the challenge to his wartime conviction by offering him a pardon. And his response was, I'm not accepting a pardon. I should be pardoning the US government. And so I really appreciate his spirit, saying no to injustice, fighting for justice. But then, most importantly, even after he, his conviction was overturned, in 1984, he worked to advance justice for others. And so that's the Fred Korematsu story part of it. Now, in terms of how that gets connected to this center, starting around 2005, I wanted to start a center. And eventually, Seattle University gave me the opportunity to start a center. So as an academic, I was going to call it this Center for the Study of Race and inequality, because that's what US academics do. We, we create centers that study race and inequality. But then I had this great conversation with one of my colleagues, Professor Lorraine bajnai, who had been on the legal team in the 1980s that worked to overturn his wartime conviction. And she said, Well, what if we named this center after Fred Komatsu as like, like blue lightning bolt like that was like a brilliant, brilliant idea. We quickly arranged a meeting with the Korematsu family in San Francisco. It's actually in Oakland. So we met in Jack London Square. I remember that day it was a rainy day, meeting in a private room and a restaurant there. And lo and behold, to my surprise, Catherine Komatsu, who's Fred's widow, actually said, yes, at the end of the meeting. And so, you know, that's how the center got started in terms of its name. And we've been working very hard to fulfill to honor his legacy, I realized that it just went on for a very long time. And I apologize for that. No,

Austen Parrish 8:29
no, no. And that's that history is important. And it's hard to underscore just how significant a figure he is in American history. And, and certainly, I think, probably one of the leading civil rights icon of the last 100 years and the most important Asian American civil rights icon, I think, over that period of it. Do you think I'm right on that, or? Oh,

Bob Chang 8:49
yeah, I mean, I think I remember when, hearing that when President Clinton awarded Fred Korematsu, the president Presidential Medal of Freedom. I think part of his his remarks included that we add Fred Korematsu, whose name to, you know, in the list included, Rosa Parks, and I forget the other names, but, you know, when we think about important civil rights, icons, and what they stand for, and also the reminders that they serve, because that's what we do, when we, you know, go to court, we seek to remind them of this legacy. And it gives us in some ways, the way the moral voice, you know, that to speak, justice, in the face of injustice.

Austen Parrish 9:36
That makes sense. You said you're the founding executive director is the is the core Matsuev family still playing a role in the center and, and have they played a role in his continued success since you founded it that, that rainy day in Oakland?

Bob Chang 9:49
Yeah. So, you know, we make sure to maintain a close relationship with the Korematsu family especially with with the daughter and Karen Komatsu, who was the one who's really been working to advance her father's legacy after Fred's passing in 2005. And after Katherine, his widows passing in, I want to say 2010 2011. And so part of it includes that in order for the Korematsu Center to move from Seattle University to UC Irvine, we had to get the family's permission to do that, because, you know, this is, this is their family. This is their family legacy. And so we maintain a close relationship. Now, Karen at the same in that same year that we founded the core Moxie center up in Seattle, she founded in San Francisco Korematsu institute that creates some some name confusion, you know, people like I sometimes get emails about about the Korematsu Institute and she sometimes gets emails about the Korematsu Center. I mean, her focus is primarily on advancing civics education, initially, especially K through 12. But now beyond that, really trying to educate the students about the history of the mistreatment of Japanese Americans and other, you know, other others, right, other racial minorities and others who have been been been subjected to discrimination. And then, you know, one of her projects test included, try to get this recognition through the getting states and sometimes local municipalities to recognize Fred Korematsu day. And it really is about trying to remind people about this incident in history, this this terrible incident, in order to motivate people to not do that, again,

Austen Parrish 11:46
how relevant to the NRA, I've had the privilege, as you know, to have met during Korematsu and she's an icon in her own right. It's amazing how she's continued her father's legacy. Well, that's a great background about the center and its founding. Maybe we could talk a little bit about the actual work that Senator does, and the students do that are working with you and us. You know, it's one of the few of its kind in, at least in the scope and the breadth of its work. It does. Can you describe the Center's work? And and how are the different ways that you make an impact?

Bob Chang 12:17
Sure. So, you know, one of the areas that we pay a lot of attention to is race discrimination in the criminal legal system, you know, both locally, so within Washington state, you know, we were we've been up here, but also nationally. And so, you know, part of it includes just really trying to think about first, is that a matter of documenting racial disproportionality, and if that's the case, we do the research to support the factual findings of race, disproportionality. But again, then to try to think about, well, how does it come about? And what could we do to address so as an example, I'm so proud of the work of my assistant, one of my assistant directors, who's been leading clinic teams, so student teams, on this one particular issue that involves something that we observe, which is that black children tend to get punished more severely than do white children, you know, so that's an observed disproportionality. So then to try to understand well, how does that come about? You know, we could just say, Well, it's because of racism, you know, going to court and say, Oh, it's because of racism doesn't get the court to do anything. And so, my assistant director, Jessica Levin, you know, supervise students and doing research. And they, there's this research out there about, it's called Adult vacation bias. And it's this bias that exists. And sometimes it's can be explicit, but quite often, it's implicit. Black children are regarded as being older than they are biologically. And so because they're regarded as being older. The hypothesis then is that because they're perceived as older, they're seen as more culpable, more blameworthy, which then leads to harsher punishments. And then on the flip side of it, why children are seen as younger, more innocent, and therefore more worthy in we think, sentencing courts, eyes of receiving lesser punishments. And so then, once we have the outcome, and the research, we then think about, Are there cases out there that try to bring that before the attention of the judges to then think about what what might the solution be? And so that's just one example where, you know, in the criminal legal system, we observe an outcome that we think is not right. We try to understand it, and to then think about the specific ways that we can support litigation to address that.

Austen Parrish 14:49
If I was a student working in the clinic or working in the center, sounds like I'm doing some research I might be doing some court work, can you can you give me a sense of what my day to day Life as a student might be.

Bob Chang 15:01
So the day to day life, I mean includes that when we're thinking about the clinic, in part, because we try to give them a an experience, where they begin a project and end, the project with the court filing amicus briefs, is are often a very, you know, a nice pedagogical tool that also serves our advocacy goals. So for those who don't know, an amicus brief is a friend of the court brief. So we're not parties to the litigation, but we sometimes represent ourselves or represent other groups who have a stake in the outcome, they're going to be impacted. And rather than being excluded from the proceedings, through an amicus brief, they get actually get to express themselves to court. And so over the course of a semester, there will be a primary project, where they begin with from start to finish up to the filing. But in addition to that, we you know, litigation doesn't just happen, you know, between, you know, August 15, and, you know, December one in a semester, we're involved in lots of litigation around the country. And so what happens is, as we have work, they can dropped into more discreet assignments. So they have a major role in one project and amicus brief that they research and draft, like, all the silly little things at the end, right, getting the tables done, right, the pages and, and the Alpha Kate ties ation of the table of authorities. But then they also get dropped in other projects. So as an example, one of the cases that we've been involved in was, you know, for six years, I've been co counsel to Mexican American high school students who are challenging a law that was used to terminate the Mexican American studies program in the Tucson Unified School District. Now over the course of the litigation, you know, it might be that during a semester, we're doing discovery, and so they might work on interrogatory. So request for admissions, or go over production that the other side provides, or we might be in summary judgment, you know, proceedings, and they might do some research to support drafting on things like that. And so what we try to do is to give them a very experience, so that fits in some ways, like life in a law firm. Yeah, it's not just like you have one project. And maybe, you know, some, some attorneys are lucky to just have one project, or one client that they can they can work with and work on. But a lot of little things do come up.

Austen Parrish 17:39
Well, speaking of multiple projects, and juggling multiple balls, at the same time, you wear multiple hats, you're not just the executive director, you're also a professor of law, can you describe a little bit about your research and teaching interests separate, apart from what you do with the senator.

Bob Chang 17:54
So sometimes I feel like I have three jobs, but let's figure out how to best support me in doing my my three jobs

Unknown Speaker 18:01
denied that, by the way, so

Bob Chang 18:04
much as I enjoy the the advocacy, and part of it includes that when you're doing advocacy, you get immediate feedback, it's like, oh, you win a case or you lose a case, your motion to dismiss is denied or, or or accepted. Whereas when you're doing research, you know, part of it is trying to affect hearts and minds. And you know, so when I think about the work that we do, I do think about different I think about the short term, I think about the mid middle level, and I think about long term, long term is hearts and minds, you know, we have to change hearts and minds if we're really going to produce durable change. And my research and you know, I think fits along that, you know, it's harder though, to know the direct tangible effects of the research, but you do it with faith you like, I'm gonna put these ideas out there, I'm going to talk to people about them. And you hope that these ideas, you know, are heard, and then sometimes listened. And so, you know, in terms of my work, like I write about race, so, you know, a lot of my work focuses on Asian Americans, then also especially about how different racial groups fit within the American racial topography. And then also a lot of it, I think, is trying to understand, you know, how conflict arises, and how conflict is managed, and then especially how coalition's are built. I think that's actually very critical, not just to my research, but also to the work of the Korematsu Center. We do a lot of work in collaboration with with others, so it looked like you had a question that was coming out so

Austen Parrish 19:47
well, I was gonna say, you know, if a, if somebody wanted to get a glimpse into into your work, and you've written a number of books, you've written, dozens and dozens of articles and in reviews and essays, is there something that sticks to you Your mind that says, you know, this would be this would be a good introduction to the work of Professor Bob Chang is there was one of your books maybe or one of your articles that you would recommend if our listeners wanted to learn a little more. Sadly,

Bob Chang 20:10
one of the best things that I have written is the first thing that I wrote. And I say sadly, because, you know, it's like, maybe I should have retired after writing it. But my first article was called toward an Asian American legal scholarship. What it did was to try to address what I thought was a silence, both in terms of academic writing, and also in terms of civil rights work, that not enough attention was being paid to what was happening to Asian Americans. And so speaking, that was something that was very important to me. And so, you know, that's that, if you're okay, reading 81 pages and 432 footnotes, start there.

Austen Parrish 20:56
I've read something you're asking that question. I will know I've read some of your work. And I know what you're saying is not true. You've had a body of work that's been influential. But I think that's a great place for for people to start. Well, you're moving to Irvine this summer and to join University of California, Irvine School of Law. Can you tell me more about that move and and sort of what you're hoping to accomplish, and maybe about your excitement of coming down to Southern California.

Bob Chang 21:21
So part of my excitement about joining the UC Irvine community includes how rich and academic environment it is. I'm so excited to join the colleagues who are doing work on race and inequality, both in the law school and in the broader university. You know, in terms of moving the Komatsu center, it's it's not something that I did lightly. And it has to do with my ambition with regard to the Korematsu Center, which is to create a durable institution, because the center is not me. I mean, I think sometimes people think it's me, and maybe it's because my Twitter handle is Korematsu Center. And it's not me. And that was why I wanted to start a center because, you know, too often we do work out there as individuals were to atomistic. But by creating a center that I hope will persist, Irvine, I was so grateful when UC Irvine made the offer in terms of what the center would be able to do at Irvine, in a way that allow for its sustainability. Because, you know, when I think about life and the boundedness, of of our existence, I think I have another 15 years in me in terms of doing this work. And I hope to be able to hand off center including even before that, that time, to allow somebody else to fill it with their vision. Because Fred Korematsu, his legacy is so capacious. I have a certain way that I'm doing about it, but it is so capacious. I would love to see it continue to grow. And I think that UC Irvine is giving us the opportunity for that to happen,

Austen Parrish 23:19
I should say, since it was announced the outpouring of sort of interest from those in the community that know the Korematsu legacy know, the work that you've already done, and are excited that you're going to be doing it here in our backyard with our students. I it's been, it's been wonderful. And I so I think you're going to find a very strong community here in Orange County. That's that excited about all you're doing and excited about the the impact that it has on students do right, giving them a glimpse on how they can make a real difference and learn tremendous learning skills while while they're a student, which is fabulous. You know, maybe a basic question. If somebody in the community wanted to support the core Matsudo center and and its work, how would they do that? What's what's the best way for them to reach out? One

Bob Chang 24:05
of the ways that we've been able to be able to work in so many different parts of the country has included that we do a lot of work with pro bono counsel. There is so much goodwill out there among people who want to do good. There is so much goodwill out there in terms of people who want to work to advance racial justice. What I think that the Korematsu Center provides is a vehicle for them to be able to bring in their time and talent in a way that we can guide them. And then to be crass, I mean, the other way to support this work includes investing in the center in terms of financial resources, the more financial resources that we have, the more that we can do. You know, as an example, All, growing out of the litigation that we did in Arizona, the law firm that that I worked with that took the case to trial, while God Shaw actually gave us $150,000, that was matched to do a postgraduate advocacy fellowship. And so that's an example of what financial resources can do. So we are able to hire somebody who has graduated from law school, who is trying to figure out a pathway in terms of public interest law. And then for us to be able to work with them to benefit from their work, but then also in the goal is to watch them. And so in that way, adding to the capacity out there, in terms of those who are able to do this work. But again, this is one where resources are required.

Austen Parrish 25:56
When you say that, though, it reminds me of how you know, it has almost a double impact, right, or maybe even a triple impact, because you hire somebody as a fellow who not only helps serve live clients, and those most in need, and so they're making a difference there. But you're helping the person who's in that role, launch their career. And so you're doing that, and then you're helping advance the research and understanding of these issues on a much broader level for the benefit of society. It's rare in those circumstances, that that $1 can have an impact in such a long way. So maybe it's it's part of you having three jobs at the same time that it ends up having three ways that it impacts the world in a positive aspect. You know, you were talking about public interest and pro bono work. You know, one of the things that we emphasize here at at the law school is not only the importance of serving the community, but also how that makes students a better lawyers that if they're serving those most in need, helping those most in need, and learning the skills that they need as a lawyer, they, they become more adept at being a good lawyer and, and more adept at serving communities they're going to serve after they graduate. Well, that's my take. So how do you go through the role of public service and public interest work as a component of legal education as a component of your work?

Bob Chang 27:06
I agree with you. So when I think about the power that lawyers have, and also the role that lawyers play, as leaders in our communities, whether local, regional or national, bringing them in and filling them with imbuing them with this notion of the public service. And, you know, as a as a state law school, UC Irvine is particularly well suited in terms of this as as, as a core mission, that there is a responsibility and obligation to give back. And one of the great things then is that if you're able to show the students how to do that, while they're in law school, it makes them more likely to continue it when they go out. And whether they practice in a private firm, or for a corporation or for state government, or even if they, you know, hang up their own shingle. It's, there's so many different ways. And obviously, you know, not every case is going to be, you know, like, be a, you know, challenging the constitutional constitutionality of a state statute. But for me, one of the things that, you know, it's it's the reminder of lawyering, as a as a service profession, sometimes I get the most joy out of helping a friend with regard to a landlord who is mistreating them with regard to their security deposit, you know, the the dollar amount is not, you know, it's not a huge figure, but in their lives, you know, giving them this kind of assistance, also, sometimes being able to show them how they can advocate me that that is such a wonderful experience to be able to, to have.

Austen Parrish 29:01
I think you've said that so well. And I saw a statistic last year that almost 95% of our first year students volunteered with with local nonprofits, government agencies and local firms that were doing volunteer work in their first semester of law school, which is pretty extraordinary. But But I think that's also because students realize that not only can they make a difference, and they can work with some fabulous community lawyers, but they also learn great skills, right? I like to think I teach a decent class and, you know, explain what's in the books, but there's something about actually working with clients and actually having to interact with people and those soft skills that are critical, I think, turning somebody into a good lawyer and to a great lawyer. So I think you summarized that. Exactly. Exactly. Right. You know, I've asked you a number of you've already discussed a number of projects or and cases and things that you worked with on the senator, but if you're looking back over the last, you know, the history since 2000, or five is, is there one case or project that that you're particularly proud of that you look back on and say this really sort of it illustrates Fred's core mots his legacy best and kind of shows the potential for how the center can do good and has done good.

Unknown Speaker 30:07
I think the accomplishment that I'm most proud of is what we were able to do in in Arizona. And you know, I mentioned this earlier. Okay, so we were involved in for for six years, representing Mexican American high school students, who had been told that Mexican American history and their stories did not belong in the classroom. I mean, think about the message that that imparts to those students that the damage that it does, but in addition to that, evidence shows that ethnic studies, increases student engagement and improve student outcomes documented in that case through our expert test scores and graduation rates. But the other part of it that I think is critical, and this reminds me of the first day of, of the trial, when one of the teachers testified. And he talked about what his goal was in his classroom, in Latina, Latino literature. And it was that he wanted to provide materials to provided a mirror for those students to be able to see themselves, but also a window onto the world. You know, the idea is that ethnic studies isn't just for the group, that you're you're part of that ethnic studies is critical for everyone, because it gives you a window to the world that you might not otherwise see. And it's critical than for preparing you for our multiracial democracy. And I'm most proud of it, in part because we are encountering a time now, where certain states and school boards are saying certain kinds of history can't be taught the truth and sometimes can't, can't be taught. And I think there's a real harm there. And I think that the work that we did in Arizona provides a template for how some of these book bans and curriculum bans can be followed. And so in addition to the specific outcome that we got there, it's like, by the way, I think I forgot to say like we won, you know, after after the trial, but it is also that it provides a model for those who are fighting these battles today. Well, Bob, hey, thank

Austen Parrish 32:30
you for being the guest on this. Today's episode of UCI law talks. Great to learn more about the center and and I think some of our listeners may not have known the full story of Fred T. Korematsu and so fabulous, learn more about him and and the legacy that Karen Komatsu has been leading. We're looking forward to seeing you in Irvine and very soon and having the center call UCI law home. Before we sign up. And this Today's episode is anything you'd like listeners to know either about the center, your work, or your move to UC Irvine.

Bob Chang 32:59
I don't know that I have anything short of like a nice sort of thing in terms of that question. So sometimes

Austen Parrish 33:06
people have words of wisdom for students, so it could be as simple as you should sign up for my class. Well, Bob, great to have you on today's today's episode. Thanks for making the time and and looking forward to seeing you and UC Irvine very soon.

Bob Chang 33:21
Thanks so much for having me and I'm so excited to get down there. Thanks.

Intro 33:30
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai