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Joe DiMento reflects on his half century career at UCI, his indelible impact on the Law School and his extraordinary scholarly achievements

Dean Austen Parrish interviews UCI Law Distinguished Professor Joseph F.C. DiMento, who has been an integral part of UCI for 50 years and a founding faculty member of the Law School, about his leadership and early days at the Law School, his impact at UCI in Planning, Criminology, Law & Society, the former Program in Social Ecology, and the Newkirk Center for Science and Society, as well as his many scholarly achievements. 

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Featuring:

• 

  Austen Parrish

  Dean and Chancellor’s Professor of Law
  University of California, Irvine School of Law
  Expertise: Transnational Law and Litigation, Civil Procedure, Constitutional Law, Federal Courts

  Austen Parrish assumed the role of Dean and Chancellor's Professor of Law of the University of California, Irvine School of Law in August 2022, becoming its third dean. He previously served as the Dean and James H. Rudy Professor of Law at Indiana University Maurer School of Law. In 2018 and again in 2021, he was named a Wells Scholars Professor for his work with Indiana University’s prestigious Wells Scholars program. In 2019, he was bestowed with IU’s Bicentennial Medal and, in 2022, he was awarded the Provost’s Medal, the highest honor bestowed by the Office of the Provost, recognizing outstanding and transformative contributions to Indiana University Bloomington. He serves on the board of directors of AccessLex Institute and is an elected member of the American Law Institute. Prior to academia, Parrish practiced law at O'Melveny & Myers LLP in Los Angeles. He earned his law degree from Columbia University.

• 

  Joseph F.C. DiMento

  Distinguished Professor of Law
  University of California, Irvine School of Law
  Expertise: International law, environmental law, international environmental law, urban planning
  

  In his decades of teaching, Professor DiMento has written a dozen books and taught courses on a wide variety of subjects, including international law, urban and regional planning, domestic and international environmental law, administrative law and regulation, business and government, conflict resolution.

  Professor DiMento also served for 10 years as the director of UC Irvine’s Newkirk Center for Science and Society.

Podcast Transcript

Intro 0:04
Welcome to UCI Law Talks from the University of California, Irvine School of Law. For all our latest news, follow UCI Law on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn.

Austen Parrish 0:22
Thank you for joining us. My name is Austen Parrish. I'm the Dean and Chancellor's Professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Law. This is UCI Law Talks, the podcast where you learn more about the amazing anteater community, that is UCI Law, and also obtain a glimpse into why we have such an inspiring legal community here in Southern California. Today we continue our celebrations of UCI Law's 15th anniversary. Professor Joe DiMento, one of our founding faculty is joining us. Joe, it's great to have you here and welcome to UCI Law Talks.

Joseph DiMento 0:52
It's great to be here. This is a wonderful idea. And I'm glad you're doing this.

Austen Parrish 0:56
Yeah. Well. Thanks, Joe. And it's great to see you this morning. I want to start at the beginning. You're not only a founding faculty at the law school, you've been with UCI a long time. And and can you take us back? When did you join the University of California Irvine? And and what brought you to Southern California?

Joseph DiMento 1:13
Great question. I've been here a half century, what brought me here was a 1969 Volvo. I got in my car in Ann Arbor in late December. Let's see it was 1973 and I drove out. And I started here in the what was then, the program in social ecology and when I came here didn't know much about Irvine. I had been in in California a couple of times. But Arnold Binder, an eminent psychologists broke away from the School of Social Sciences, and began an innovative program called the program social ecology. And that brought together scientists, environmental sciences, policy people, psychologists that were looking for a lawyer, I hadn't any idea what I was going to do. I was getting my Ph.D., and J.D. in Michigan, and was about to go on the job market. And I got this call gotten other calls, too, because it's a combination that not many people had at the time. J.D., Ph.D., and here I was able to start teaching, planning and law and the law of planning. So that that brought me here, back then.

Austen Parrish 2:33
I know, I'm struck. First, I'm struck with the 1969 Velvo, what a great car! Can you tell us a little bit like, what was it like? Like I've heard I interviewed somebody recently who had graduated in in the late 1980s. And they were talking about how much the university has changed. Can you tell me when you first arrived, like was the campus similar to what it is today?

Joseph DiMento 2:54
Oh Lord, it was very homogeneous. There were 6,000 students where our home is now there were more cars than there were people there now 36,000 or something like that. It was different. It was much less corporate than it is now. People knew each other. There was a great feeling of collegial collegiality that still exists, but it's we're so big. Now. The area, you drive here on Bison road, there was a bison down the street, the fields that are now 300,000 People with homes were orange groves. So it was very different. From a point of view of excellence. The original founders of the school brought in the best people they could in social science and physical. You know, we have three or four Nobel laureates, at least one of whom started here, and Cherie Rollin. So it was a great place, but it was much smaller and much different.

Austen Parrish 4:07
I'm jealous of you know, what a great time to join. And who would have thought of the trajectory, as you say, not only of how, how much bigger it's gotten, but also what an amazing university over the last

Joseph DiMento 4:18
It is. It's extraordinary over the early years, we'd bring people out to recruit them. And they say, Irvine, I've never heard of it. Some would come thinking, well, it's warm there now and I'll just go for the trip, but I'm not interested in. When they get here. They get turned around. They love it. They love the nature of the university. Some people love the region, but it has a magical impact on people who did not know us now we're pretty well known.

Austen Parrish 4:49
Well, I gotta say, I'm glad I'm not having to dodge Bisons on the way to campus but we'll tell you no, you don't not only have you been here for 50 years and from some of the early days so the university, but you've also served in leadership roles. And I was sort of Google stalking your resume and taking a look for the interview. But you were Chair of the UCI Academic Senate, you directed the Newkirk Center, you headed the criminology Law Society six section in the School of Social Ecology, you directed the program of Social Ecology, you're looking back at those leadership roles. What were most memorable experiences for you and not on the campus side like you've just described? But in the academic side? What were some of the biggest changes you've seen?

Joseph DiMento 5:31
Stop me, okay, because there's so many memorable points. I start with Chair of the Senate, which some of our colleagues don't realize that we're shared governance and to be chair of the Senate means you work with the chancellor and the provost, and you meet with them regularly, you initiate and you respond to initiatives of the administration. And when I was chair, I knew you had to be fairly modest about what you were interested in getting accomplished. And I had three goals. One was to have the faculty more involved in land management and Facilities Planning. That didn't work. I was director of Land Management under the Vice Chancellor, we didn't have a provost at the time. So I was involved in moving the long range development plan through the regions and interacting with developers in the community. Lots of interesting stories, including when we cited the University House, the Chancellor's house, and money was starting to come in. And we found out that we had cited it on top of an endangered species habitat, the lease spells very low and the gnatcatcher. So we moved that, and then we didn't get the chances as for years later because of the economic downturn. The other part of being Chair of the Senate. This is particularly interesting to my dear friends, Michael Drake, and Erwin chemerinsky. I got the call from the chancellor saying, Joe, you better sit down, I just relieved you're appointed new dean as the first thing. And I said, I don't have to sit down. But this is this is a big blockbuster. And as you know, that worked out extremely well. But that was, that was the kind of activity I liked being in a leadership role as Director of Social Ecology. We were the first new building after what is called the brutalist period of social UCI architecture. So our little building, the School of Social Ecology, building program and social ecology came in at a budget of $4 million. We didn't know how no one knew how to build new buildings, it had been years. So we actually sent 900,000 back to the office of the president because we didn't spend it all. But what stands out, given our amateur approach to new buildings is I was the director of this then program. And we had to do the walkthrough to have it become a habitable. So this crew of people who had never come together and started the walkthrough, and it wasn't clear who was in charge. So I said, Gee, that wall looks really bent. Is it supposed to be that way, and no one quite knew. And they got improved. But that was memorable.

Austen Parrish 8:57
I got to say, to build a building of that size, and it's a spectacular facility, $4 million, or 3 million, whatever it was. That's remarkable.

Joseph DiMento 9:07
So I think you may be thinking of a different building. It's a small building. It's now there are three or four later generation social ecology and social science buildings, which are probably 40 to 60 million, I don't know. But this was this is the first one that exist and it's, it's a nice little building.

Austen Parrish 9:27
What a great recollection of history. You know, one of the things I mentioned, was the director of the Newkirk Center, and I know that's played a major role on campus. In addition to other things. Can you tell us a little bit about your involvement there and what the Newkirk center was?

Joseph DiMento 9:42
A great contribution the new Kirk's have made to UC Irvine. Some people know them from the Alumni Center, which they funded. Some of them run the wonderful pavilion baseball which brought us back in the world of baseball. We were great, and then we didn't exist and now we're great again. And Jim was a baseball player. And that was close to his heart for Martha, who was an undergraduate in social ecology, a master's degree in social ecology, a Ph.D. in social ecology, or regent, the student region, she always wanted UC Irvine to be known more. In the community. It's much, much better now, Austen, but people knew of Chapman, they thought of us as perhaps leftist intellectuals up on the hill, but people didn't know the quality of the work we were doing. So her interest was to and they funded nicely as center that would bring the science of UCI to the community, whether the community be the coastal communities, or whether it be the state or the nation. That was her goal. It started off modestly. Now. It's doing very, very well under Steve Ellison and it is expanded in its role. My role was director so I produce programs on climate change and biodiversity, my interests, and I'm on the board now.

Austen Parrish 11:18
You directed that for a decade, right?

Joseph DiMento 11:25
Yeah, just about almost a decade.

Austen Parrish 11:27
That's a significant time. Is there one program, when you look back where you say that was that was kind of the capstone of those 10 years or one that you thought was particularly...

Joseph DiMento 11:36
Well, that's selfish. Yeah. We brought together leading people in the world on climate change. And I used it to edit a book called Climate Change:What You Should Know for You and Your Grandchildren, MIT Press, two editions, contributions, ... Naomi Oreskes... best people in in the country, indeed, in the world on climate change. And I think that's what makes for success in administrative positions when the person can find overlap between his own interests in the interests of the institution. And that focus on climate change, which continues is probably the highlight.

Austen Parrish 12:25
What time period are we talking here?

Joseph DiMento 12:27
Let's see, I've been gone from that role for 10 years. So the 10 years before that.

Austen Parrish 12:35
But that was really at the cutting edge. Right. But you know, now people talk about climate change, and, and everybody's well into it. But but in the 90s, that was really...

Joseph DiMento 12:45
That's really very interesting, because it's been on my agenda for 40 years. The first work on climate change goes way back to Benjamin Franklin. But as you probably know, the interest in it and the belief in it, if you can believe in science has cycled over the years. And back then I think there was very strong curiosity and willingness to be educated about climate change. And the law, some of my colleagues on the other side of campus, say, you know, we really need laws related to this. And this is what some of the problem with silos at UCI which we all try to knock down, there is a huge amount of law in climate change. I teach a course and climate change laws.

Austen Parrish 13:37
Well, I think law impacts so much, and I think you're right, in environmental and climate change, it's played such a prominent role. You know, that's a great transition, because I wanted to talk about our 15 year anniversary and, and the founding of the law school. But I guess before we get to that founding, you were involved long before then, you know, I've read it before, but I reviewed it again, as I got ready for this interview in 2011, you wrote just a really tremendous piece for the UCI Law Review, I think the very first issue of Law Review, titled UCI Law The First Half Century, we don't have time to dig in fully. It's a great piece, and readers can find it and read it for themselves. But can you talk a little bit about the early plans for the law school? Your law school wasn't thought about in 2008 or 2009? It started way before that. Can you give us a little texture about the history way before?

Joseph DiMento 14:24
And thank you for warning me not to get too deeply into it. It was a extraordinarily interesting article to write. I had a wonderful research assistant, or when provided that we went way back half century where the early plans of Clarcor at the University of California was to have another southern law school, Southern California law school. It's interesting to be one of I think there were three J.D.'s at UCI in the 70s. So we were the lawyers So I was involved in drafting the CCNR's for university hills, then we had to bring in real professionals to do it. But way back then we would need five or six of us to think about what a law school should look like. And then it went into irons and nothing happened. Then years later, under Jim McGaugh, who was now we call it the provost, he put together a committee, and I was on it. And we brought in our normal importer, and we got serious about it. And we worked very hard to create an approach that that would that would build a great law school.

Austen Parrish 15:44
And how successful you were. Like I know it took a long time until until it started moving.

Joseph DiMento 15:51
That's what I wanted to say. It had its ups and downs, and those were somewhat financial. But you know, we're all... Jack.... used to say, we are all one big UC family. That's not true. There was opposition by other law schools, including UC law schools, and you don't do that explicitly, but we encountered some opposition, fairly serious. There were ups and downs. There were champions, and I wanted to talk about five Michaels who were champions Michael Drake, Michael Gottfredson, Michael Clark, and Michael Arias. Let's see... anyway I'll think of him, but they were absolutely were the single not single because of their other roles, but a very strong focus on getting this law school done. That was a major, very major step in the process.

Austen Parrish 16:54
Can you talk a little bit who they were, I think most people know Michael Drake, the current president of the UC system, but our listeners may not be so familiar with the others and what roles they have.

Joseph DiMento 17:03
Gottfredson we recruited years ago from Arizona, and he was what then became the provost, but vice Vice Chancellor. He's a leading criminologist in in the world. And he was very interested in the law school and helped us immensely. Michael Clark was the Assistant Vice Chancellor. And he was... the fifth was Michael Post. Michael Clarke is a brilliant intellectual with knowledge of the history of law. And he had this going within, within the Office of the Chancellor. Drake, Gottfredson, Clark... Arias was the chief operating officer's assistant and Mike Arias is just an extraordinarily effective administrator, like your Patty or Charles Cannon was and getting things done. Very, very successful. And Michael Post helped us very much with regard to the very significant amount of background work had to be done statistically, we don't need more lawyers. Well, perhaps that's true on one level, but we need more, better educated lawyers with the kind of focus that UCI law school would have. I don't know if you use this concept, but I do. You need a champion to get something like this from an idea to a real institution. And Bill Parker, who has played every significant role at this campus from head of university hills to Assistant Executive Vice Chancellor to acting head of physics, he never let this go He was the head of the Academic Planning Council, on the Senate side, when I went in to present this as the next major school at UCI and he was extremely helpful.

Austen Parrish 19:09
I have to say I was very proud of the history when I was talking to some leaders in Orange County, and I was asking them about the changing legal profession in Orange County and its growth. The consensus and I've heard this now several times that the two most important things to the Orange County legal community was the building of the federal courthouse. Yes, and the founding of UCI law school. And it was, at least among a small group, it was a consensus that those two events were galvanizing to bringing talent into Southern California in Orange County, but also sort of the maturation and in the dramatic expansion of the legal profession, in the broader Orange County area.

Joseph DiMento 19:47
That part of the history is interesting because there was some talk of bringing the courthouse to UCI, we even had a place for it. And there was some talk of I was taking over Whittier law school. And so you could see the different approaches we were working with to get a law school at UCI. And you mentioned the federal courts, Andy Guilford was, has been extraordinarily helpful with us from the very start.

Austen Parrish 20:17
Let's fast forward to to the founding days of the law school itself, not the early history when it was sort of right in the eye, but the the actual sort of the founding faculty in those early days, you were there from the beginning, you are a member of the founding faculty. Can you describe what those early days were like when we first opened our doors and the first students arrived?

Joseph DiMento 20:38
Yeah, happy to. We were optimistic. And we were nervous. When the Senate approved the starting of a new lawsuit of a new school of the law school, the legislative history, we don't have that. But I was there. The commitment was made by faculty, we only want this to be approved if it is going to be in the top 25 law schools. And Austen, as you know, having been the dean and vice dean, it's hard to get to be in the top 25. So we were nervous. But we were optimistic because we brought together what was called the Dream Team. I hate those kinds of expressions, but a very, very, very strong faculty. We brought together a very, very strong first year class, how can you bring in a class that talented when nobody had heard of you? Well, one of Erwin's great contributions was to raise enough money to give the first year class full ride for three years. And so you had these risk takers, smart people, people, talented in one career saying that, wow, this is quite an opportunity for me to do what I might want to do. It was optimistic, nervous, hard work. Too many meetings. You know, I'm always I remember when you came in, I think you said, let's talk about the number of faculty meetings, if I'm putting words in your mind, it was the priority. And they said, Oh, we're going to have fewer. And the Deans said, No, I think we should meet more often. Not my cup of tea.

Austen Parrish 22:26
I know, it's you mentioned the inaugurals, the students who came in 2012, or graduated in 2012, 2013, 2014, those first three classes, and one of the great jobs of being dean as you get to meet these is, and you're right, like, what a, what a great group. Ambitious, but modest, and a lot of integrity. I've been struck by how many of those early graduates have taken on really big leadership roles and unity and Bar Association's, nonprofit boards. And I think it's a great testament to what a great job recruiting those early classes, from the founding faculty, because there's lots of lawyers out there, but it can make a difference if you get the really good ones.

Joseph DiMento 23:09
Yes. And of course, having those very top academics, I could name them. But if I name all of them on this one, and that's not a good idea, but having her own as the dean known all over the country. So that was a very important signal to people that this was going to go places.

Austen Parrish 23:32
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, well, you know, I think one of the things I'm struck with is that it was not only the idea was to build a fabulous law school, but it was also one that was distinct and innovative in its approach to training students with the idea that the law school maybe could make a difference, not just in hiring amazing faculty, not just in having amazing students, but also having a really distinct program. Can you talk a little bit about the early vision about what was going to make UCI Law School distinct and special?

Joseph DiMento 24:03
Sure. You know, this didn't come from a whole cloth, empty sheets of paper, there were planning documents that took a couple of years to create. And the original proposal for a law school talked about things that we one, public interest, focus very strong from the beginning, environmental very strong from the beginning. I wonder why that was. Intellectual property, very strong. Maybe not so obvious, but with our very strong programs throughout the campus and in being in Southern California with major firms and intellectual property. So that was a part of the original proposal. A focus on practice was very important. I don't think you'll find any .... You know more with your role. Although they are less than your other deanships, I don't think you'll find a law school that makes as much of a commitment to the clinical practice lawyering skills to the legal profession, understanding the options. So very special focus at UCI that has maintained and has been maintained. And I don't know if the listeners are aware of this, our clinical faculty, our main line faculty, are just extraordinarily talented and invaluable in creating the kind of education that we are aspiring to.

Austen Parrish 25:42
I think that combination of deep expertise in particular subject matters, providing a broad base, sort of understanding the law, and then combining that with this great skills, training skills, training, what lawyers need when they start, but then also, as you said, this, this broad understanding of the legal profession itself, what lawyers actually do the range of what lawyers are able to achieve. I do think that's distinct. And to be honest, I think it's ever more important for a well rounded education to have that deep, you know, doctrinal theoretical knowledge, how to think like a lawyer, combined with that broad understanding of what is it that lawyers do with how do you make a career? I think you're absolutely right. And it's a nice way to be distinct?

Joseph DiMento 26:23
Yes. And you know, a number of students come in and say, I'm definitely going to be a corporate lawyer. And then they said, Gee, I didn't know if there was public interest law or environmental law. What's that? Then I did the same thing at Michigan, I went in saying, I would be a civil rights lawyer. And I came out being an environmental lawyer. And as we talked about later on, now, I put the two together.

Austen Parrish 26:51
It's interesting you say that. I I think more students than people realize change their progress during law school. I like this idea, though. And I've talked about this with other guests about how important to this commitment to the community and a broader concept of public service. So it may be that you graduate, and you become part of one of the really fabulous nonprofit organizations that are providing really critical legal services. But we've also seen that somebody might go into high finance or the largest law firms, yet they still have that deep commitment to giving back. And I think that makes them a better lawyer and more likely to be successful in their career, and it's certainly better for Orange County.

Joseph DiMento 27:31
I couldn't agree more.

Austen Parrish 27:33
You know, I started the conversation, we talked about how cows, orange fields and Bisons had moved to the modern university today. How is the law school changed, so the values and the mission and the commandments have remained the same? But that hadn't been things have changed over the last 15 years? At the law school since the early days of the founding?

Joseph DiMento 27:55
Wonderful question. I remember when the first edition of the law review came out, one of my cynical faculty members in another unit said, Joe, you'll just be the same as any other law school in 20 years, I think what has changed is, I think we're confident that we are very good. At the beginning, we were hopeful that we would be very good. And now we're confident that we're very good. And we're confident that we know what indicators, we are trying to be good along, along with dimensions. And we do that very well. I think we're, we're realistically a very, very good law school, we're confident about that. confident about our future. We know we'll lose people, and a lot of them come back. So we're confident. And I think that's what I would say.

Austen Parrish 28:57
It's striking to me how much that sort of commitment to excellence has continued. And, and you're right, it's, it's amazing what people have accomplished. You know, I'd like to turn move away from the law school a little bit and talk about some of your own contributions. You mentioned how you started when you came here is one of the few J.D., Ph.D.s and but a change from Michigan to Irvine. And in those days, you now are not only long standing members of law school, you have joint appointments and planning and in criminology law in society, but can you describe your substantive areas of expertise? You mentioned environmental, you mentioned climate change, but can you give us a little more depth as to the work you've done over the last 50 years on your scholarship and research?

Joseph DiMento 29:36
Again, you'll have to stop me. You know, I'm fundamentally a scholar. I've done all these administrative things, and I've enjoyed them. But what makes me really happy is a very successful morning of teaching and then going into my office and engaging in scholarship. I do work in a quiet qualitative and quantitative weigh on the effectiveness of law at all levels at the international level at the local level, I do that in the fields. And the environment is, you know, one thing you didn't mention, which is very much a part of my work now is transportation. It's been a part of my work for 30 years. Those of you who drive on the century 105 freeway, should someday read the history of how that came to be, and how that would have been a very different freeway, if the Center for Law in the public interest did not bring a lawsuit with the NAACP, to stop it from being built the way it was going to be built. So law and transportation is a very important part in my work, the effectiveness of law is a very important part of my work. And that's at every level, the work that I'm most proud of, if you had to take things off the shelf, one of them is this book and articles called Changing Lanes, Visions and Histories of Urban Freeways. And that involves planning law, social science, and ongoing because after the latter part of the 2010s, the focus on equity extended much further into transportation and equity. And so that's my work now is going going beyond what is effectiveness and transportation systems from a point of view of air pollution and moving people around quickly, two perspectives on who benefits and who gets hurt, whose homes are taken, who is suffering from the air pollution associated with proximity to freeways. And I tried to do that in a very scholarly way. I'm an advocate, but I'm an advocate only when I can back up what I'm advocating by what I consider to be the science not all freeways are racist. But some decisions have been made on the basis of racial motivations. So that work, then a little piece I wrote years ago, and I was doing an NEH fellowship at Yale under Robert .... I think it's the thing I'm most proud of it's undertakings issue, nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation. How did that come about that it was interpreted this that way. And I wrote a piece for the Journal of Legal History on how Justice Holmes and Justice Brandeis disagreed on a famous case, called Pennsylvania Coal. And how do you find out about that? So I went into the archives, took the bus from Yale to Harvard, and went into the archives and the Supreme Court archives, and saw how they were communicating with each other writing notes to each other. At one point, Justice Holmes later on says, one of the phrases in Pennsylvania Coal that people keep citing is, is one that I just made up, I don't know, I had to say something. It's a piece I'm most proud of. And then the work on the Arctic that started 15 years ago after I had, I know I'm talking too much, but I'm excited.

Austen Parrish 33:42
You just published a book, right?

Joseph DiMento 33:43
Yes, yes, yeah. Yes. And if you read it, you'll double the readership. It's called Polar Shift: The Arctic Sustained with Anthem Press, and it focuses on sustainability of the Arctic. An awful lot is written about dooms, in a doomsday way about the Arctic, and the ice caps, and its climate change, which all of which is true. But the focus of the book on the Arctic is on sustainability and whether the law is doing enough and work to do a little bit more to enahnce the probability that the Arctic will be sustained. And by that, I mean the biodiversity I mean, the endangered species, but I also mean the people, there are conflicts between cultural activities and classical environmental protection goals, and working those through through approaches that recognize cultural history that recognized sustainability means sustainability of peoples and indigenous groups, as as well as sustainability of the critters, is what I'm trying to do in that book.

Austen Parrish 35:05
It's fascinating work. And, you know, I think it's true in Southern California that not many turn their gaze to the Arctic. But what an important area, as you say, not only for environmental, but for indigenous peoples that are the Inuit up there. And like what a rich tapestry of work you've had over the last 50 years...

Joseph DiMento 35:22
That's been so fascinating, because I've always said, including with freeways, you don't write about anything unless you've kicked the tires. So I used to walk the, the area where the freeway was going to be built, and places where dead bodies had been found in the ruins of Wasteland in that period, before the consent consent decree where it just laid undeveloped for 10 years. But with the Arctic, I've been to every Arctic section of every Arctic nation. And it's absolutely wonderful to say that's research.

Austen Parrish 35:59
When you started talking about your research, you mentioned how you would teach in the morning, and then you do your writing and your research in the afternoon. Let's talk about the teaching. What classes have you taught and, and what have been some of your favorites over the last last five decades?

Joseph DiMento 36:12
You know, I was thinking of that, because I said I'm mainly a scholar I, when teaching goes well, it's so delightful and delicious. I don't have a favorite course I have a favorite class when it went well. Now we're working, for example, I'm teaching international legal analysis, which I'm happy to say is not a required course it used to be required. And people take it, at least some because they really are interested in it not because it's required, what a joy to be able to work on, with students on climate change, but also on the conflicts and to try to, to approach the conflicts, Ukraine, Russia, the Middle East, Gaza, the West Bank, Israel, with a legal analytical framework, knowing how extraordinarily tense and passionate are the positions on this, I'm not saying I do well, but that's what we're trying to do is trying to say, these are serious international problems that have to be addressed in ways that we as legal professionals have something to offer. I teach international legal analysis, which is called Public Law. In some places, I teach international environmental law. I was gonna say, it's what it sounds like. But it covers everything from the law of protection of the environment in space, the extraterritorial reach of our of our own law with regard to protecting endangered species. I teach climate change law, which is when it's taught, it's an interdisciplinary course when I bring over our amazingly competent scholars in earth system sciences only. We work together on projects. I teach land use, and development control, which I tell the students, this is a course that is has not been the most sexy course in law school, but I assure you when you're done with it, you will see how interesting it is everything from fair housing to First Amendment issues, to takings, of course, takings. And I teach a course, thanks to your openness and the Vice Dean's on animal law, which some of my colleagues say, Joe, you're gone off the rails. What is animal law? The first time I taught it, it was extremely well enrolled. And so and we all learn so much together.

Austen Parrish 39:01
You've taught thousands of students, some of our listeners, are students thinking about going to law school or just join law school. Do you have some advice for them? Some words of wisdom for somebody, they're thinking about law school or just starting their law school career?

Joseph DiMento 39:15
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's doable. It's completely doable. It's a job that you have. When you think of your life, young people. You have a lot of hours in the day. And law school is learnable. If anywhere, it's learnable. It's at UCI Law because of the amazing resources that we make available to our students on how to do law school. I remember at Michigan I started in the summer. I took torts as a summer course. And I was getting a Ph.D. at the time. So we had one exam I never do that that then one exam. That's it. And I wrote this, I thought, really interesting exam. And I said, oh, there are a lot of issues on this question. But there's only one that's interesting kiss of death. So it's all doable, and we teach. But I but our amazing staff teaches you how to study long, it's doable. It's not a function only of the number of hours you put in. It's the number of function of how active you are during those hours. So it is not undoable. I think it's important to pace yourself. Even during the bar exam, go for walks, go through a park, go surfing, or whatever you do, but pace yourself. It's all doable.

Austen Parrish 40:49
I think it's great advice. Joe, you mentioned it's been 50 years, and I don't really believe this. I know, formally, you're retiring. But I think you're going to be busy in many different ways. You've had such an impact over those years, not only with your research, and your teaching, but as we briefly described an impact on the university. Can you tell our listeners what's what's your next plan? Are you still going to be writing still teaching, got some travel in store?

Joseph DiMento 41:12
All of the above. Before I came down here to talk with you, I walked into my office and there was a giant trashcan and I said, I guess I'm leaving. So one thing I plan to do is avoid packing my office. But I will do that. I promise not today, though.

Austen Parrish 41:33
And we'll still at least we'll still have an office for it. I think at my senses, you've got a lot of papers you've stored up over that time.

Joseph DiMento 41:41
I know I have to. I've moved several offices over the years. So it's not 50 years of accumulation, I'm going to get away, unhealthy again. I'm going to get away for a short time. Because I want to avoid the mistake, not making a healthy transition. I think it's been so much a part of my life. And it's very emotional. It's very emotional. And I think it's important not to walk to Albertsons every day. And I think it's important to make a transition. And I promise myself because I think it's right to do more volunteer work. And I don't know whether that will be with the homeless or what it will be. But I feel very important that it's very important to, as I just told the students, you know, in 40 hour week you can get a lot done, including having a good time. So I have time to do that. And Skaneateles will be part of it and Milano. Most people know Milan, not too many people know Skaneateles. It's in an area that I grew up on, we have a house there. It's God's country, it's the Finger Lakes, we'll spend a lot of time there, I wrote a couple of my books in the public library, in Skaneateles and in the Historical Association of downtown Syracuse. So that's, that's what I'll be doing.

Austen Parrish 43:13
I'm jealous. I'll be looking forward... I know we're gonna raise a glass at some point. Yeah. And hopefully, hopefully some wine for Milan is part of that. And the Finger Lakes and the Finger Lakes is a celebration of really 50 amazing years. It's been fabulous. Thanks for stopping by this morning. It's been really, really fun.

Joseph DiMento 43:36
It's really fun. I enjoyed it. And I appreciate it.

Austen Parrish 43:38
Well, I appreciate it, too. It's, it's great to learn a little more about our history and also be able to spend some time with you and, and talk a little bit about your work and really did enjoy your most recent book on the Arctic. I haven't finished it. But I've read the start and I recommend...

Joseph DiMento 43:56
Starting it is half the battle.

Austen Parrish 43:58
I recommend others do too. We'll look at it's been fabulous. And you get the final words, as I always do with guests. Any last words for our listeners, before we sign off on this episode of UCI Law Talks?

Joseph DiMento 44:08
Yes, it's easy. We have a great, quote new unquote not so new dean. Please support him what he's doing the energy he's putting into this, the vision. It's extraordinary. I talked to people at other universities and I said he can't keep this up. And they said yes, he can so support them in many ways, including, well, you know the ways.

Austen Parrish 44:39
Joe, that's very kind of you. Great to have you on UCI Law Talks.

Joseph DiMento 44:40
It was a pleasure.

Austen Parrish 44:41
And thanks so much for spending the morning with me.

Intro 44:43
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