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Mei Tsang on Leadership, Service, and Building Community with the Orange County Bar Association

Dean Austen Parrish interviews Mei Tsang, President of the Orange County Bar Association and Partner at Umberg/Zipser LLP, on her vision for the OCBA, the importance of curiosity and connection in the legal profession, and her inspiring journey as an immigrant, lawyer, and leader in the Orange County legal community.  

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Featuring:

• 

  Austen Parrish

  Dean and Chancellor’s Professor of Law
  University of California, Irvine School of Law
  Expertise: Transnational Law and Litigation, Civil Procedure, Constitutional Law, Federal Courts

  Austen Parrish assumed the role of Dean and Chancellor's Professor of Law of the University of California, Irvine School of Law in August 2022, becoming its third dean. He previously served as the Dean and James H. Rudy Professor of Law at Indiana University Maurer School of Law. In 2018 and again in 2021, he was named a Wells Scholars Professor for his work with Indiana University’s prestigious Wells Scholars program. In 2019, he was bestowed with IU’s Bicentennial Medal and, in 2022, he was awarded the Provost’s Medal, the highest honor bestowed by the Office of the Provost, recognizing outstanding and transformative contributions to Indiana University Bloomington. He serves on the board of directors of AccessLex Institute and is an elected member of the American Law Institute. Prior to academia, Parrish practiced law at O'Melveny & Myers LLP in Los Angeles. He earned his law degree from Columbia University.

• 

  Mei Tsang

  Partner, Umberg/Zipser LLP
  International Intellectual Property Law
  

  Mei Tsang is the 2025 President of the Orange County Bar Association (OCBA) and a partner at Umberg/Zipser LLP in Irvine, California, where she practices international intellectual property law. She has served as chair of the OCBA’s Intellectual Property and Technology Section, co-chair of its Diversity and Inclusion Committee, and is a board member of the OCBA Charitable Fund. In addition, Mei is actively involved in the broader legal community, serving on the board of Community Legal Aid SoCal (where she is a past president) and as an executive council member for Asian Americans Advancing Justice. Mei’s leadership has earned her recognition, including the Attorney of the Year Award from the Orange County Women Lawyers Association. Originally from China, Mei moved to Indiana at age 13, pursued a degree in genetics at Purdue University, and later earned her law degree at the University of Illinois

Podcast Transcript

Intro 0:04
Welcome to UCI Law Talks from the University of California Irvine School of Law for all our latest news, follow UCI Law on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn.

Austen Parrish 0:21
Thank you for joining us. My name is Austen Parrish. I'm the dean and Chancellor's professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Law. This is UCI Law Talks, the podcast where you learn more about the amazing and eater community that is UC Irvine law, and also get to hear from leaders and lawyers of Southern California. Today, we have an absolute privilege to be able to be able to chat with the new president of the Orange County Bar Association. Mei Tsang, in addition to her OCBA presidency, Mei is a partner at Umberg/Zipser LLP where she has an international intellectual property practice. She's also deeply involved in the community, among other positions, she serves as a board member of the Orange County Bar Association's Charitable Fund. She previously served as the former chair of the Orange County Bar Association's intellectual property and technology section, and the co chair of the Bar Association's diversity and inclusion committee. Mei also serves as an executive council member for Asian Americans Advancing Justice, and is on the board of the Community Legal Aid So al, where she is a past president. Recently, she was recognized and received the attorney of the Year Award from the Orange County Women Lawyers Association. Hey, so great to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining us.

Mei Tsang 1:29
Thank you so much for having me. Dean Parrish. It's a pleasure.

Austen Parrish 1:33
Well, great. Great to have you on the on the pod, and why don't we jump right in? You know, this week, you will be formally installed as the president of the Orange County Bar Association, an organization which you've been deeply involved for many years. Can you talk a little about the Orange County Bar Association? Let our listeners know what why it's important, and the impact it has on the Orange County legal community?

Mei Tsang 1:54
Oh, I would love to. So I kind of feel like I have to talk about a little bit about myself, and to kind of give you an understanding why the Orange County Bar means so much to me and what it can do. So I am originally from, you know, I went to school at University of Illinois, and I started a big law firm in Chicago, and then I am a transplant to Orange County in 2006 and at that time, I didn't know a single person in Orange County professionally. And funny enough, an opposing counsel I was working on a case with. At that time, I was with the firm of Lieutenant Tucker. He said, Hey, why don't you, you know, come help me with this OCBA IP and technology section. So that's when I started to join the bar. And I just thought that time would be good for me to meet some, you know, like minded IP attorneys. And I never would in a million years think that, you know, now, in 2025 I would be president of this fine organization. So what Orange County Bar is, it's 124 year Institute. I mean, that's, let's just let that sink in. You know, that's kind of crazy to just even think about what longevity this organization has had, and it's really serves as the foundation for, I think, attorneys in our legal community, to to to be with each other, and to also really support our legal community in many ways, as matter of fact, it's important for you know, we love our mission statement, and it's very simple, it's it's to enhance the justice, the system of justice, to support the lawyers who serve serve it, and to assist the community served by it. And that's really at the heart of OCBA. And you know, besides having CL east for its members, I think it's so much more than that. You know, we have over 26 sections that's based on practice groups, and when we have 21 committees that's broken down by whether they're for the lawyers, whether they're for the community, or whether they're for advancing the system of justice, and on top of that, you know, I mean, I, I'm just Going to, I love stats. So OCBA, just last year, has hosted 524 events. I mean, that's mind boggling. That's like, you know, almost two events a day. You think about it so and for me, I met Dean zip Sir, who was the founding member of Chris Zipser, the firm where I'm at, and I met him because I was running for Board of Directors my first term, and I heard about him, so I reach out to him, and from there, we build a mentorship. He mentored me, and then we built a friendship. And next thing you know, we've been working together. So it is truly something that not only the bar, has You, know, given me all these wonderful connections, but literally, has transformed how I practice law in this community.

Austen Parrish 5:11
Well, it sounds like you got a lot under your plate as you take on the presidency with with that many events and and that many sections, how about the upcoming installation? What's is that A is that a small event, or who will be there?

Mei Tsang 5:23
Yeah, well, first of all, please note that I'm not going to be attending 520 some events a year. I believe that's humanly possible. But, yes, I think. But those of you who are listening, you know, if you ever have the privilege to attend one of these installation judges night is such a fun event. We're anticipating about 700 attendees. It's one of the largest event in our legal community, and it's really called, it's called OCBA judges night, and the installation is part of it. But what's exciting about this evening is really, we're there to celebrate our judges in the county. So each table will have a judge sitting there, whether it's, you know, state court judge or federal judge, or, you know, specialty court judges, and also beyond, you know, installing the officers. My my role as president, and also the board of directors for the Orange County Bar and the Charitable Fund, which is the giving arm of the OCBA. We're also going to be giving out the Franklin G West award. And for those happy a lot of students who might not be familiar with this, this this is the sort of, the Lifetime Achievement, the highest award you can be given out in our legal community. It's very prestigious. It's, you know, it's, it's a, it's very impactful. This year we're going to give it to the Honorable Judge, Gail Andler, who is been very deserving of this award. She has served in so many ways in our child community. She's now an amazing mediator over at jams. So we're going to have a wonderful night, and I hope to see some of you there.

Austen Parrish 7:14
Well, I know I'm going to be there, and I think you're right. It's always been a great event in the past, and I'm looking forward to it this year. It'll be great to see you installed. And as you say, it's always great to see all the judges and everybody in the legal community. You know, I think as as you're taking on the new role, you wrote just recently your inaugural column as president for the January edition of the Orange County Lawyer magazine, finding a home in OCBA, my journey and vision as president. I you know, that was really a great piece, and it was accompanied by a wonderful and lovely interview. If our listeners haven't seen it, I recommend they check out the OC Lawyer magazine. But can you talk a little bit about your vision for this coming year, expanding on some of the things you talked about in that first column of yours?

Mei Tsang 7:57
Yes, of course. You know one thing I learned by having been involved on a board level with OCBA for this will be my 10th year. Is that, you know, this is really a team sport. The Orange County Bar is made up of so many amazing volunteers, of great leaders in our community, and they are the ones, and also with an amazing staff helmed by the great Dennis Slaughter, who's our new CEO, Executive Director, after replacing Trudy Levandowski, who's been with the bar for 35 years, although Dennis has been there for 18 years, so you know, he definitely knows what's going on. And my job is number one, as I have two formal presidents of my firm, Scott Garner and Dean zip, sir. First advice for them is, don't screw it up me. So that's really important. So I'm not going to no matter what I do, I just, I just have to find it, and it's better, you know, just don't break anything. And so that's number one. But I think beyond that, what I really want to make sure my vision is really about, you know, I have three words, be curious, get connected and make changes. Well, it's really six words, but it's all, C's right. I think this stems from my love of, you know, I'm sure many of you have probably seen Ted lasso, but it's so being curious is a very important thing. And if I wasn't curious enough, I wouldn't like keep poking in and say, oh, what can I do here for the OCP? What is it? You know, and also being curious about people. I mean, ultimately, that's what this profession is about. It's about people. So I want to expand that by making the bar more accessible and having it really serve as a foundation, a platform to connect folks. So for example, there are a few things that I really want to achieve. One is to bring this OCBA community fair. And this will serve, you know, many of us, and I know Dean, you're this way. I've seen you at so many events. We're at so many events throughout the year without amazing legal community, but oftentimes of of you know, family and friends are going what? What's going on? Oh, another OCBA event. So my vision is to have an event where we could bring out, you know, friends and family, bring out dogs, to just kind of hang out for a few hours. You know, maybe have a fair, you know, each sections, committees, affiliate bars, law schools, nonprofits, the courts, can kind of showcase who they are. But yet, at the same time we're having fun. We're going to, you know, have some burgers and hot dogs. We're going to play some games. I think this is just the kid of me that I just want those carnival games, you know. So somehow we're going to make this happen. So I think that's going to be a nice way to not really, not just, you know, our volunteers amazing, but also really steep ourselves within our community and let the folks in our county know that we're here for them. And also, this year, we want to bring back bridging the gap, which really matters to the to the law students. We used to have this program where OCBA kind of come to the schools and explain to the law students what is it all about, and how it could benefit them, professionally and personally? So we're going to bring that back, and we're also already have created a law school liaison, which I know, thankfully, thank thank goodness that you are agreed to be part of it, so the bar and the law schools will have more communications, because we want to know how we can help law students as they navigate, you know, to finding careers through AI challenges, you know, and through just the merit of you know, you never know what obstacles come your way And kind of just segue then to to an AI discussion. We are going to have an AI task force that help attorneys figure out what's going on with this AI stuff. Because there's so many software, so many programs, everybody knows you need to do it, but they don't really know exactly how to do it. There's different level of expertise within our legal community. So as the Bart's going to put up the task force and help coordinate some of that,

Austen Parrish 12:26
well, that sounds amazing. I know you know sounds like you got a lot on your plate. I know you said earlier that there's 500 some odd events coming up. Are there a couple in addition to the installation on the judges night that we should be keeping an eye open for that that you think particularly sort of is up next, and the local community should should be aware of?

Mei Tsang
Yeah, let me just first speak from a law student perspective. The good news is, if you're a law student and you're listening to this, you're already part of OCBA, so I really encourage you to take advantage of that. We are so blessed at the law schools. We have this relationship with the law schools where all of you are enrolled, and basically you are entitled to audit benefits that as if you are a practicing attorney. That means, if there's, there's the Cle events, you know, if you want to be an IP there's an IP technology section. So if they have a CLE event you want to attend, you should go. If you want to be a family law petitioner, they we have a robust section, you should go to that. And each sections, a lot of times, will have these networking opportunities. That's something the law students should take advantage of. And also, you know, their specialty programs such as what you're asking Dean, I think the couple ones that stands out is there's a summer social that's coming up that will be in June, that we include all the affiliate and affinity bars, and it's always a great time. And we recognize someone in our legal community who has contributed both, you know, from a professional sense and from a dei sense. You know, I'm very grateful that, even though di is a very charged word these days, but we live in such a diverse county, we recognize we have such a diverse population from everything cultural background, food. You know, I love to eat, so we very much care about this, and it's a time to celebrate and to celebrate our affiliate, Bart. So that's one that stands out.The AI Task Force is already going to come up with a program that will probably have later on this year, that teaches anybody wants to participate sort of different things on AI technology, and also just technology in general. You know, for example, in the legal world, we still use Excel a lot. And maybe everyone's not going to be that intuitive with knowing how to use Excel. At school, there are probably other programs the law firm sometimes a little behind. You know, we don't use the fancy programs that sometimes the students use so or even word there are a lot of shortcuts. I only learned that when I started practicing law like you know how important that is to save so much time. So those are the programs that the law students should be on the lookout for. And also we generally there will be again, mixers with we have a community outreach committee, and they do a lot of fun things like beach cleanups, food drives. They have one with pets. They have one towards the end of the year. This happened in September. We help with the Special Olympics. So there are just a lot of ways to volunteer and sort of really get involved.

Austen Parrish
Well, when you're not, when you're not doing work for the OCBA, your day job is a partner with Umberg/Zipser LLP. Or can you tell us a little bit about your practice and and the firm and and where your area of expertise lies?

Mei Tsang 16:01
Yes, I'd love to. So Umberg/Zipser LLP is a local firm here in Irvine, and we have business litigation, and we also have a full service intellectual property practice. I'm very grateful to be here. We're about 20 attorneys. We're not the biggest firm, but I think all of us partners were a big law firm, so we're sort of, you know, learned a lot from that. And for my own firm, and I primarily do a lot of intellectual property law. And I started as a patent attorney, but nowadays I practice more on the trademark side and on general counseling, a lot of almost outside General Counsel work for a lot of our clients in helping them navigate, you know, not only through IP, but also corporate issues, tax issues, litigation issues, things of that nature. And I've been practicing since, you know, 2002 and always in the IP area. And I just love it. It's one of the few areas where I call it sort of happy law, because people come to you and they're like, I have a dream. I want to do this. And that you're like, Okay, let's make it happen. Versus most, most legal services, we're there when the clients is like, in the stress, you know. And I do litigation too, so that we do have clients that are in distress. But a lot of the IP is on forward thinking and building, so that's really fun. And, you know, I have an amazing team. I manage an amazing group of IP attorneys much smarter than me. They have PhDs. They're, you know, doing biochemistry, mechanical, aerospace. I mean, we kind of take on any practice, you know, sort of technology. And that's the fun part of it is to learn what's going on.

Austen Parrish 17:51
And when you went to law school, or when you graduated from law school, did you know that this was going to be the area of practice that you were going to specialize in, or, or has your did your ambitions change after you, after you got into the jobs.

Mei Tsang 18:03
You know, it's so funny, you asked that Dean Parrish. So I will give you a little bit of background on me. I started as, I'm an immigrant. I came from China when I was 13 to this little town in Indiana, and there were, like, no Asians there. There's like three of us and And funny enough, I was good at math only because I already took Algebra, like, twice in China. So by the time I was taking it eighth grade, they're like, oh my goodness, she's a genius. And then they're like, You should be a doctor. So for some reason, I just really didn't think it through. As many young people feel, you know, they don't really know what they want to do. And I did always want to be a lawyer when I was in China, because I watched these Hong Kong legal drama and they have the wigs because they're they were British rule at that time, with the robes. So it was the British legal system. But when I came to this country, I just thought my English was not good, and I never thought that could even be a possibility. So never even thought about it. I thought, oh, I should just be a doctor. I studied genetics in at Purdue University, and I was thinking about becoming a doctor, but after graduating, I started to start it with as an EMT, and I just couldn't hack it. It was too much. God said Glory. I was bouncing the back of an ambulance, and I just realized this is really not for me. And it was scary because I said, Okay, now I'm not doing that. What am I going to do? I didn't really want to do research. I did a few years of actually medical sales, because that the degree lend itself to that. And then I saw a friend of mine was studying for the LSAT, which was something I again, even in college. I thought, this law thing is never going to happen. And I never even came to my mind, but I saw the outside. I was like, Oh, I think I could actually do this now my English, I feel confident in myself. So I studied for that. I took that, then I went to Illinois, and even at that time, and you know, we were not as connected as the younger generations are. So I didn't have anybody in my family that that was an attorney. Didn't have mentors until I got, sort of got to law school. So no, IP wasn't even on my radar. Intellectual property was not something I knew until we had OCR and one of the partners from a big firm came to me and say, Hey, you you have a bio degree. You could practice Pamela. Do you know what that is? I'm like, No, so I was very naive in that sense. But I'm so glad they did that for me, because it opened up a door that I didn't even know was possible for me to walk through. And now I'm, I'm very happy with, you know, the area I've chosen, I kind of have stay in this lane, expanding a little bit more into a general counsel role, but it's been my passion. I love practicing law. I love helping clients and getting into the nitty gritty on, you know, what, how to protect someone's, you know, intellectual property. So, but I know that's a long winded way, but I just want to kind of share that with law students, that it's okay if you don't know. And again, staying in that vision of my being curious, it's like, oh, you could do this, mate. Okay, let's see what that is. Just ask your question. You know,

Austen Parrish 21:35
I think that's empowering. I think there's a lot of pressure for students to sort of feel like they need to pick a field right away. And yet, I think the story of many successful attorneys is that they didn't know, and it took a little while until they figured it out.

Now, maybe on a different podcast, I'll question your wisdom of going to Purdue and Illinois over Indiana, Bloomington, but we'll, I will skip that. Well, I, you know, I in addition to the work that you do as an attorney in the Orange County Bar Association, I mentioned at the very start of the podcast how much you're involved in the community. Can you describe a little bit some of your work that's outside of the the Bar Association and and which work has been most meaningful for you? And I know you previously served as the president of Legal Aid Southern California. So maybe you could talk a little bit about that too.

Mei Tsang 22:24
Yes. So I, you know, when I started this profession, I had some very fortunate to have some great mentors. One of them was the great, late attorney, Harold Shapiro at my old firm, sun and shine app in Rosenthal. And he left the lasting impression on me, because he was like, you know, we had like, 800 attorneys at that firm, and he was probably number seven attorney when he joined the firm, so he's definitely right up there on the top of the food chain. And I was amazed that he always took time, you know, for little people like me, a young summer associate. He took the time to talk to me. He took the time to get to know me. And from there, I learned that he was like that with everybody, you know, he was like that with the copy guy. He was like that with the janitor. He helped put people through, you know, through his connections, get them bank loans, you know, get them resources they need. And for me, it was always important that this profession, I took it very seriously, and that it's a profession, and you really need to lean on, sort of your network and have a sense of, sort of this level of you know what excellence should be. And part of that needs to be about being paying back to the community, you know, and I seen that it's also selfish, because that gives me the greatest satisfaction. So IP is a very specialized area practice of law. And when you go to law school, as many of your students are going through right now, they get to take all these subjects that are very passionate. You know, they get to learn about our criminal justice systems. They get to learn about folks that don't have means to help themselves. You know, Len or tenant issues. They get to learn about whatever it is. But yet, the reality is, when you go to work, you're going to be tunnel vision, usually in a practice area that you're not going to get to touch all these other things that you really care about. So by being part of the community, that's really what's going to give you that sense of purpose that you often can lose once you start practicing law, and there's just a lot of ways to participate. You know, as a young attorney, I did a lot of pro bono work. I was also, you know, I worked on cases with on on sort of immigration issues, on people trying to seek refuge in our country. And I also worked with the Constitutional Rights Foundation in Chicago and in Orange County, in teaching high school students about civic. Six and, you know, mock trial and things of that nature. And Community Legal Aid is an amazing organization. They've been here for, you know, almost as long as Orange County Bar Association. In fact, it's been founded by the wives of Orange County Bar Association leaders, because back then they were all men, they recognized there was a need to have a legal aid to serve our orange county population. And now it's a huge organization. There's 75 attorneys for Community Legal Aid, and they service not just, you know, Orange County, but it's called So Cal. They also serve Los Angeles area, and in so many different facets, and some of the most brilliant attorneys and pushing for some of the biggest cases that our counties have seen. So I was very, you know, privileged to be part of that. And and, you know, we have such a great and you know this too. We have a Public Law Center. We have veterans legal Institute. We have the Elder Law Center here, just in Orange County. So the legal aid organizations here is unparallel, and they're all right now run by women leaders, which is in itself, kind of remarkable as well. There's a lot of collaborations between these organizations, along with OCBA. So it's all interconnected. I think if you serve on one thing, you just are going to be involved with some other stuff. Just because this, this county, everybody really works together to help each other.

Austen Parrish 26:38
Yeah, I think you make a good point about the legal community here, it's, it's, it's still, it's big, but it's still small enough that you get to see a lot of the people doing similar things. And those organizations you mentioned are fabulous. You You already gave some great advice. But if you were to boil down, sort of like, what are the few things that you would really advise students as it relates to public service or public interest work. What would it be?

Mei Tsang 27:03
You know, I think the students need to know you can start now. You know, I was pretty involved as a law student with a lot of different organizations. And one, again, already talked about how it's kind of self fulfilling. But two, it really is a way this job is this profession. It's all about kind of your network, the people you know you know. So the major indirect benefit is that the folks you serve with you never know how and what way that you can help each other down the road, whether it's you know you want to you want a different job, you need advice on something, or you run into issues yourself, you might need some services. I think it's really beneficial. And there's so many ways for students to serve. They should not be afraid to reach out, you know, to, you know, sometimes I think they go, Oh, my God, these are big time attorneys. We can't contact them. Please do. And sometimes, you know, people might get busy, so contact them multiple times, go to events and seek help and say, hey, what can I do? Volunteer. I really appreciate. I seen a lot of UCI students at variety of different events as volunteers, and that's so wonderful to see. And I know your school has amazing clinics. So students already have that kind of built in within their DNA, you know, to kind of help and provide work. But as they go on to become attorneys, it's really important, you know, I think when you just do this job without all that extra, it can be it can be lonely, it can be scary, so, you know, and honestly, you make some amazing friends, some of my best friends and people that I serve with, you know, we got them to know each other through these different organizations. And it's also creative. I think lot of times when you're at your job or you're a law student, you feel like, okay, I'm always the one that's learning. This is the one area where your voice matters. You know, you actually, really can make an impact in someone's lives. So that's very fulfilling. And in a lot of ways, sometimes it's about putting up programs. So if you're creative, you know, I always secretly wish to be like an entertainment producer for movies and TV shows. But the great thing about these organizations is, if you have something, you know, you can produce it. You can say, hey, let's put this together.

Austen Parrish 29:27
Yeah, I think that's good advice. You mentioned before that you were in Chicago and you grew up in China, and then Indiana, and then went to school in Illinois. How did you get out to California? We didn't, I don't think you mentioned that. What drove you from Chicago to Los Angeles or Orange County?

Mei Tsang 29:45
Well, you know, it's very cliche, but I met a guy at a bar, and next thing you know that I moved out here, but it all worked out. So I came out here as an attorney to support one of my girlfriend who.I went to law school at Illinois, I mean, Loyola in LA and then I met someone. We ended up dating and and he was either going to have to move to Chicago with me or I'm going to move out here. And I always wanted to be in California, you know, I felt like the state really matches who I am, even though at that time I didn't know enough, but I know enough to think that was and also I really wanted to get out the cold. I know you know that too, that I love Chicago. It's a great city. But, you know, I came from kind of the tropical area in Hong Kong, where I was, where I grew up, a lot, large part of my life. So I wanted to go back somewhere warm and and I just, I love being here. And I worked out, you know, Steve Brown, his name, I've been married to him for almost 20 years. We have two boys, and we raised them here. We couldn't be happier.

Austen Parrish 30:59
Congratulations. Yeah, I was going to say Hong Kong to to winters in Chicago is a bit of it is a tough adjustment. You said that you you've interacted with, you know, UC Irvine students on some of some of the work. Can you describe a little more in different ways that you've kind of come across UCI Law students?

Mei Tsang 31:19
Oh, yes, you know, funny enough, believe it or not, two of our young associates are UCI grads, and we're so proud, and we're so happy with them. And one of them, I met through an IP event that UCI Law School put on, and Nasser Khateeb is his name, and he, I think he had part in helping put that together, so I did not go to this event. Intend to really hire anybody. It was just there to talk about, you know, what the practice of IP law is. But through that, I met Nasser and also many other law students who are just really great at reaching out. And from there, I realized, you know, I saw many familiar faces, and I see them at a variety of affiliate bar events. I see them at the OC women lawyer Association as volunteers. I see them at OC Korean American Bar Associations as volunteers. And you know, it's a small community, and you get to know them, and what ends up happening is you really want to root for them. So if I know they need a job and something, I always try to find ways to connect them with other people. And you know, I think that you know you said law students do a really good job with that is to reach out to other folks and know that, you know, they don't let just being the law student limit them. And I think that's key. They already planting themselves into the community.

Austen Parrish 32:50
Yeah, no, I've, I've always, that's always struck me, too. I, I was just recently at a national conference where a few people from outside of California were complaining that they thought, Well, kids these days, and they, they, they, they were saying, I wish you know, students actually engage more with the community. And I have to say, I'm struck by how much our students are out there. And you mentioned Nasser, he's fabulous, but there's so many others who, as you say, get deeply involved with the Orange County Bar Association and with other affiliate bars early in their law school careers, and I think it makes such a difference.

Mei Tsang 33:23
Yeah, and, and, you know, I don't want to play favorite either. The other wonderful UCI grad I have is Darian McMillan. Darian McMillan, and she came to us. And this is a good story for, I think, your listeners, she came to us sort of post graduation, which I know some students can be disheartened trying to find a job, but she's been fabulous. And one thing I love about Darian is that she, you know, really goes to all the events she participates. She's not afraid to ask a judge out for a lunch. You know, it's like, oh, that's a fabulous I don't even need to kind of teach her the importance of making those connections. And I think, you know, we're just very grateful for them. And I do feel like UCI law students have a leg up. I think it's to your leadership, to the whole faculty, that everyone's very involved with the community, and I think that just, you know, bake into the student body. And also we, I feel like the law school and the legal community have a really close relationship here, you know, so, yeah, just keep on what you're doing. I love younger generation. I think there's so much energy, and I think it's trial by air. You know, there's some things that they're going to have to learn, but, you know, I I'm always an optimistic, positive person. So of course, there's going to be some. They're always like, Oh, the younger generation. I think we say that every generation, I remember as a Gen X or we, we got horrible review by the older generation, where the slackers and all this. But that's just how it.

Austen Parrish 35:01
I think that's right. And as you say, Darian, fabulous. I see her at a lot of the local events. And my memories, maybe she externed for Judge Lee, which I think he's been a tremendous supporter of our students and and a wonderful teacher of trial practice and but yeah, great to see both Darian and Nasser succeed and thrive like that at your firm and and great for you to create that pathway for them.

Mei Tsang 35:23
Yes, yes, we're, we're excited. I do want to also emphasize that ultimately, our profession is a service profession, so you, you know, but yet, a lot of folks, sometimes they forget that because you, if you, you have, you, you know, and I had this experience going to a big law firm, sometimes it's very jarring. It's like, suddenly you make a lot more money. You feel like, Oh, I'm this big shot. But really, ultimately, we're in a service industry, so to serve, it doesn't matter whether you you're serving a multi million dollar client or somebody who's really in need, that spirit of service needs to really be there, you know, and that's going to what makes you have a long, lasting career, you know, in this profession, people remember that. And also nothing beats for me, you know, getting really a hug from someone that I helped, what through whatever way, right? Not, not just because they're a client or something, it's because you, you're really there for somebody. I think that's the satisfaction that, at least for me, it's the most important thing is to know that, oh, I'm able to do something. And, you know, as the as the timing of this podcast, this la fire's just kind of hopefully on the way to ending. But I know lawyers are going to be needed in so many ways for the long run for this, we are going to be there. And you know, I love lawyers. Whenever someone's in trouble, I can always count on my lawyer friends, no matter how busy they are, they're the most resourceful people, and they're the most eager people. So let's go lawyers.

Austen Parrish 37:07
I couldn't agree more, not only with as you're saying that, I think there's going to be lots of legal work as we we see the, you know, the unfortunate results, horrendous results, of the fires, but also how much it's important as part of your career. And I think you make a good point. It's true for those people who are wanting to go into public interest or government service law, but it's probably even more important for the person people going into private practice to continue to make connect to the community. We don't have a lot of time left. You've already given some advice to law students, but maybe I'd ask you this if you were to go back and do it all over again and you were starting your time off at Illinois, are the things you would be do differently. Is there advice you would have for law students today that you started looking back at your own career or your own law school experience, say, Geez, I wish I knew this, or I wish I had done this right? Any, any nuggets of wisdom?

Mei Tsang 37:56
Yes, I think the couple of things come to mind. First of all, you know, this is, I think you have to realize that you have to love yourself. You have to give yourself a lot of grace. This is a hard profession, no matter what. You got pressure, if you're a private practice, to Bill and eventually to bring in clients, if in public service, you got pressures of probably over loaded docket and, you know, and living, especially in our county, it's quite expensive. So how to balance that? And also, as lawyers, we have to put on a brave face, right? We can go somewhere and just tell people, oh, God, we we're feeling we don't know what we're doing. You know, even though you might not know what you're doing, which is very common, which is completely normal, but we have to put on sort of our professional skin to be out there. And therefore, it's a really it can be a profession that's really hard on our mental health, you know, it's really hard. We always feel like we're not good enough as an as an immigrant woman, as someone who's usually the youngest, not anymore, but only minority, only woman in the room. You know, it's hard not to say, Okay, what am I doing here? A lot of my clients have PhDs. I don't have a PhD. So I think it's really important to give yourself a lot of grace, and you are going to make mistakes. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. Everybody does. That's just how it is. But you have to be able to pat yourself and say, That's okay, it's okay. May let's just move on. Let's see what we can learn. I think that's really important. We often forget that. We often I see so many young people just like, oh my god, what can I do? I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. And I hate to say this, but I think I see this a lot more also in women attorneys. They're just this inherent feeling like, not good enough. So I wanted whoever's listening, please just give yourself the grace of you would to a friend many of us don't.

Do that, that you're really good enough. You are. You have gotten to this point, if you're at law school, if you're, you know, going forward, this is already an amazing achievement. You know, that many people can do this so, so don't beat yourself up. And I think that that's the one thing that I really want people to remember, you know. And then the other thing is that, you know, run towards the positive. If in your profession, you know you are with folks that are I'm a very positive person. Took me a long time to learn that there's sometimes people and I don't have the same value. And if we're not aligned without value, without outlook, it can result in conflict that are not resolvable. You know that you just have different ways, and that's okay. You're not You're not going to get along with everybody, but you need to know kind of yourself and run towards the positive. You know, run towards the people that really fill you up with your cup without ulterior motives. You know, you know who those people are. When you see them, you just want to you just smile. They just make you feel good. Those are your people, and you need to hold on to them. Be good to them. I think those are my advice, because it without that. It's like everything else is a possibility, but you got to have good foundation of, you know, a base for you as a self to go back to.

I hope that makes sense.

Austen Parrish 41:31
I think that makes a lot of sense, and I I share that sort of run to the positive message that you have. Life's too short to be worried about, about the negative Nellies or whatever the word is, and so I very much agree with surrounding yourself with people who support you. You know, we've talked a lot about the how bar associations do a lot of good, do a lot of events, and the importance of community service and local nonprofits. So I think you've already underscored the importance of that for law students. But any last words about how students might get involved with the Orange County Bar Association or or the value of doing so for them?

Mei Tsang 42:09
Yes, well, first of all, you already signed up, so please study the ocbar.org website. It it seems like there's a lot of information there, and there is, but you just need to go click on the calendar. There's a calendar view, and all the events of the month will pop up, and not only our events, but our affiliate bar events. So if you're interested in that, just sign up. Some of them are going to be free for law students. Some of them you have to pay a fee. But usually those, you get a meal and you get great networking opportunity. So I think you can start there, and that's a good foundation to kind of look and to also see what the affiliate bar is doing. We have so many wonderful affiliate bars and those, I mean, for example, Orange County, Asian American Bar Association, or the Hispanic Bar Association of OC, the Thurgood Marshall bar.

We have, you know, Iranian we have the Muslim bar. We have the Jewish bar. We have the Celtic bar. We have J Reuben Clark. We have American business trial lawyers. We have federal bar. We have OC trial lawyers, I mean, just so many. But the information is also on the website there for the affiliate bars, and they also have great student pricing. They have stuff that they need volunteers for it. In fact, I encourage a lot of law students to join those organizations, because they could move up to an organization pretty quickly. So this can increase your own personal capital by you know, if you say, Oh, I'm the Law School Liaison for this, or if you're a board member for any of these organizations, relatively quickly after you probably graduate, that can be amazing for your own personal sort of, you know, resume build here. But beyond that, there's Community Legal Aid, there's Public Law Center, there's the veterans legal Institute and Elder Law. Those are just a few. There's clinics to volunteer at those it's going to increase your legal skills so you you can use that to find better job opportunities, because you might be able to, you know, be a part of a depositions, go attend some hearings, drive some briefs that you wouldn't normally otherwise, to get the chance to do so, so yeah, there are a lot of ways to go in. And I also tell students, go, try a little bit of everything. Don't commit to it. It's like dating. You know, you want to go on a speed day with everybody, and then until you find sort of, this is, this is, this is where it feels good. The vibes are good, as the kids say. Then spend more time there. You know, go to those events more consistently. I think they will also be surprised at how many familiar faces. They going to see if they just go to a few events, it ends up being a lot of the same people.

Austen Parrish 45:05
Yeah, I think that's true. I think it's true also. For young attorneys, you think you're in such a large legal community, but then when you get down to it, you start seeing the same people, the same opposing counsel, the same group of judges and the Bar Association is a great way to get more connected and have a more fulfilling and satisfying career. May it's been absolutely fabulous. Congratulations again, as you assume the presidency of the Orange County Bar Association, that's it's fabulous to have you at the helm, and thank you for joining us and for being a guest on UCI law talks. The last word is yours if you have any.

Mei Tsang 45:40
Well, again. Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. And I really love UCI. I feel like you guys have adopted me as my local you know, law school. I so appreciate what you're doing. And you know, please, you can reach me through my firm email if there's any questions, please feel free to email me. I look forward to seeing all of you, and you know, and you know, I love to eat, so always up for meal.

Austen Parrish 46:10
Well, that's fabulous. And we're very happy to have to have adopted you. So I'm glad that you can see yourself part of the UCI community.

Thanks so much. This has been another episode of UCI Law Talks.

Speaker 1 46:22
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